Curse

Dame Laureline · Jun 16, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05

As a matter of fact there's a Paragon AoE. Blazing finale is the name iirc.
Paragons do good damages if you add bleeding or burning condition to the mere yellow number. Maybe Paragons would benefit to have a poisoning skill, but I think I've read somewhere health degenaration is capped to -10, so no need to add poisoned to burning and bleding. ^__^

Also I don't understand the point to have AoE. What you want is to kill enemies fast, and to kill fast you'd better to focus fire on one enemy til it's dead, then pass on the next, no ?

Oh yes, with low level opponents you can hope some AoE will almost kill every one in the mob group, but well, low level opponents aren't trouble to be defeated anyway.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 16, 2010, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dame Laureline

As a matter of fact there's a Paragon AoE. Blazing finale is the name iirc.
Paragons do good damages if you add bleeding or burning condition to the mere yellow number. Maybe Paragons would benefit to have a poisoning skill, but I think I've read somewhere health degenaration is capped to -10, so no need to add poisoned to burning and bleding. ^__^

Also I don't understand the point to have AoE. What you want is to kill enemies fast, and to kill fast you'd better to focus fire on one enemy til it's dead, then pass on the next, no ?

Oh yes, with low level opponents you can hope some AoE will almost kill every one in the mob group, but well, low level opponents aren't trouble to be defeated anyway.

examples of how to kill enemies fast (from both past and present)

hundred blades / whirlwind attack / mark of pain / splinter weapon
barrage / volley / splinter weapon
searing flames spam
DwG / spirit rift
Death Nova / minion bombing
Cryway
Ursan

All AoE damage. Look at what speedclear teams are doing and you can see what is effective. Not to say that it's the ONLY effective build, but... the results speak for themselves.

to spell it out even further...
A profession with some kind of multi-attack skill (e.g. Whirlwind Attack, Barrage) willl *always* be superior to other damage dealers because most damage buffs are delivered on a per-attack or per-hit basis. So attacking everyone around you or attacking the same target multiple times multiplies the damage boost you get from Strength of Honor, Orders, EBSoH, GDW, Splinter Weapon, Barbs, Mark of Pain. Characters without multi-attack capability or AoE damage can not compete. Again, look at the hundred blades / whirlwind / mark of pain (manlyway) teams for proof of this, or recall the splinter barrage teams that were commonly used at ToPK in times past.

to address your Blazing Finale example... that skill is useless for the paragon in most cases since he is not melee, and if you have any strong melee in your team then inflicting burning on everything around them will not matter very much at all, the targets simple die too quickly. So AoE condition spreading is nice but it is not going to fix the problem. Paragon needs multi-attack and/or AoE damage to be on a more even footing with the other professions. Even one or two nice skills (e.g. death blossom) would do a lot to fix this problem. Holy Spear is a great example of this concept in action, but right now it is ZOMG great against minions or spirits, and meh against everything else. If it worked on everything it would need to be rebalanced.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 16, 2010, 03:57 PM // 15:57

The thing is...to put paragons on even footing with everyone else it's going to take a huge amount of skill changing...at least on the same level as mesmers if not higher. They just whipped out a huge mesmer update and are midway through WiK content. So...like I would expect paragons to be addressed possibly this same time next year...if that.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 16, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

The thing is...to put paragons on even footing with everyone else it's going to take a huge amount of skill changing...at least on the same level as mesmers if not higher. They just whipped out a huge mesmer update and are midway through WiK content. So...like I would expect paragons to be addressed possibly this same time next year...if that.

i think you are totally right... that is why I felt motivated to start this thread, I wanted to encourage them to publish some updates even if they are not perfect. I think that mostly people can agree that paragons, dervishes, and rangers are the least used professions and need the most attention as far as updates go. for those who don't agree, look at the composition of commonly used teams... no, i don't see any paragons or dervishes or rangers there. :-(

NerfHerder · Jun 16, 2010, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Its amazing how much attention this thread gets when its not put in the Campfire section. Ill have to remember that next time.

JK

I would trade SY! being tied to Strength for a PvE only return of the motivation line and some party wide offensive buffs that work. I think thats fair.

Lanier · Jun 16, 2010, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Its amazing how much attention this thread gets when its not put in the Campfire section. Ill have to remember that next time.

JK

I would trade SY! being tied to Strength for a PvE only return of the motivation line and some party wide offensive buffs that work. I think thats fair.

I agree with this. Making the useless chants and shouts better should be the goal of an update for paras. Giving them chants that increase damage output like oop does would be good since paras have very few direct damage buffs.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 16, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

i think you are totally right... that is why I felt motivated to start this thread, I wanted to encourage them to publish some updates even if they are not perfect.

I think it would be better to have a bunch of little paragon updates (on a monthly or bi monthly basis) so they can slowly tweak and balance them over time. But the way they seem to be buffing classes now is giant updates that change a shitload of things all at once.

It seems to me a bunch of little updates would be easier to do than one massive one every 3 to 10 months. Then again I might be wrong...

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 17, 2010, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Its amazing how much attention this thread gets when its not put in the Campfire section. Ill have to remember that next time.

JK

I would trade SY! being tied to Strength for a PvE only return of the motivation line and some party wide offensive buffs that work. I think thats fair.

Yes, I believe the only way paragon changes can actually be effective is if Imbagon is knocked down a notch. Even if, say, "Save Yourself!" was reduced to +40 AL, the build would still be amazingly effective. Imbagon in it's current state is like... an effective build x 10.

I would actually prefer reducing the armor the skill gives over tieing it to strength. It simply needs to not be a "use this skill and you'll never die" type of skill lol

Sirius Bsns · Jun 17, 2010, 05:48 AM // 05:48

I'd personally like to see some shouts increase allies' attack speed (Anthem of Fury/Guidance says HELLO!)! It'd pobably need a serious amount of balance and testiing before releasing the change, but it'd totally spice up paragons. I'd say something along the lines of "Elite Shout: for 0...2...3 seconds, allies attack 0...25...33% faster. It could be insta-cast, but that'd probably be imba, so tacking on a 1 second cast time is fit for this suggestion. Otherwise, to make it potentially even more powerful, make it a 2-3 second cast and give it a better duration (like 0...4...7). The energy cost (if applicable) and recharge could also be extended to further balance it.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 17, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

I'd personally like to see some shouts increase allies' attack speed (Anthem of Fury/Guidance says HELLO!)! It'd pobably need a serious amount of balance and testiing before releasing the change, but it'd totally spice up paragons. I'd say something along the lines of "Elite Shout: for 0...2...3 seconds, allies attack 0...25...33% faster. It could be insta-cast, but that'd probably be imba, so tacking on a 1 second cast time is fit for this suggestion. Otherwise, to make it potentially even more powerful, make it a 2-3 second cast and give it a better duration (like 0...4...7). The energy cost (if applicable) and recharge could also be extended to further balance it.

To be honest that sounds pretty useless...unless you're in a team filled with physicals without iases (which people don't do...do they?) it's just a waste of a skill. In fact if you're in an area where SS/SV/VOR is prevalent your causing your henchies/heroes to die quicker because they aren't gonna stop wanding.

Del · Jun 17, 2010, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

To be honest that sounds pretty useless...unless you're in a team filled with physicals without iases

Essentially, a skill like that would just replace IWAY on 4 warriors so you would have to face 4 battlerage warriors with a para providing the IAS and make HA even more lame. Unless the skill was just inefficient at providing IAS, but it it was inefficient then the wars would just keep using iway or whatever IAS and the skill still wouldn't see play.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 17, 2010, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Essentially, a skill like that would just replace IWAY on 4 warriors so you would have to face 4 battlerage warriors with a para providing the IAS and make HA even more lame. Unless the skill was just inefficient at providing IAS, but it it was inefficient then the wars would just keep using iway or whatever IAS and the skill still wouldn't see play.

I wasn't thinking about it in the context of PvP (because I was assuming this discussion was purely about a PvE only change).

Age · Jun 18, 2010, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Other than the fact that the current version of WoH is hacks, I might agree with you.

The problem with balancing Monk is that any changes to the class affect every single meta in the game.

I wouldn't exactly say that and to the the one who said OPed.There are other classes that are just as OPed but Monks re in charge of keeping you alive as I meant no love for the Monk as in not being in GW2 aswll as no good updates in 2 years.

Karate Jesus · Jun 18, 2010, 06:30 PM // 18:30

By expedite, do you mean take 4 months? Because, it'll be at least that long....most likely more before we see any paragon changes.

The last dev update even said that due to the GvG changes, the dervish update may (which means "will") be late, so the paragon will be updated some time following GW2's release (in 2012). But, of course, the support for GW1 will fall off the planet at GW2's release so.......

Well, let's just find a deity and start praying. Sound good? K, then. Go.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 18, 2010, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

By expedite, do you mean take 4 months? Because, it'll be at least that long....most likely more before we see any paragon changes.

The last dev update even said that due to the GvG changes, the dervish update may (which means "will") be late, so the paragon will be updated some time following GW2's release (in 2012). But, of course, the support for GW1 will fall off the planet at GW2's release so.......

Well, let's just find a deity and start praying. Sound good? K, then. Go.

allrighty then, see below. :-)
I really hope that they push the paragon and dervish changes out soon. with each passing day I feel more and more that it will be too late to make any difference. Once gw2 is here no one will care about gw1 anymore.

</kneels in Temple of the Ages, wherein shrines of all the gods are found>

Mighty Balthazar, guide my spear that I may slay our enemies and grant me the strength to hold the line when it seems that all hope is lost. Gentle Dwayna, give me the wisdom to guide infidels back to the light and protect the faithful. As ever greater threats arise to challenge the gods I fear that my spear and my spirit will not be strong enough to withstand them! May Balthazar and Dwayna grant me the strength and wisdom to follow the path set before me.

Your humble servant,
Khomet Si Netjer
Paragon of Elona

Emily Diehl · Jun 18, 2010, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Hi guys,

We chatted with the live team about this topic, and here's an update for you:

- As we've mentioned in the past, we're currently looking at Dervish and Paragon updates (in that order). You may have noticed from the Necro and Mes changes that we're willing to make some pretty significant changes to the professions at times, so anything major like this requires quite a bit of testing. I don't have a specific timeframe for when these updates will hit, but they're in process.

- We're working on Dervishes before Paragons because we have more concrete ideas about changes that we'd like to make to them. This isn't to say we have no idea what we'd like to do with Paragons, but we're continuing to work on the profession that's had its changes fleshed out a little more.

If you have suggestions about Paragon updates (or skills in general), definitely feel free to post those thoughts on our wiki. We may not respond to each idea, but we'll check them out and consider them.

- While we're working on these profession updates, we've also started to address a variety of GvG issues (you saw some of those changes go in yesterday's build). We've done some pretty substantial updates to skills in the past six months, so we need to make sure that things are healthy with the overall meta. These changes are at the top of our priority list, but we're continuing to work on balance issues at the same time.

As a sidenote, we know that skill balance is one of those topics that can be nebulous and misunderstood, especially for people that aren't directly working on the changes. We're working on an article that will give you guys a little insight into the process behind what goes into the updates, so keep a future eye on our blog.

On that note, if there's ever a specific topic that you guys think would make an interesting article/post, feel free to email us the suggestion ([email protected]). You can post it or PM it to one of us, too (if that's easier). We can't promise to cover every idea, but getting direct input on the stuff you'd really like to read about is always cool for us.

IlikeGW · Jun 20, 2010, 03:09 PM // 15:09

How can they not have a clear vision of fixing the paragon. Here's one hint: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spear_Mastery

Those skills are clunky to put it mildly. 5 that inflict deep wound and not one of them is easier to use than the axe skill Dismember. Also compare some of the descriptions, someone went a little hog wild making them arbitrarily complex:

Here's something normal from the warrior:

Dismember

Axe Attack. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds). 5 Adrenaline

VS. this crazy stuff from para:

Chest Thumper
Spear Attack. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds) if target foe has Cracked Armor. 5 Energy 5 Recharge time

Cruel Spear
Elite Spear Attack. Deals +1...25...31 damage. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds) if target is not moving. 7 Adrenaline

Merciless Spear
Spear Attack. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds). No effect unless target has less than 50% Health. 6 Adrenaline

Slayer's Spear
Spear Attack. Deals +5...21...25 damage. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds) if target has more Health than you. 10 Energy 4 Recharge time

Vicious Attack
Spear Attack. Deals +5...17...20 damage. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...13...15 seconds) with a critical hit. 5 Energy 8 Recharge time

So we have a core class that can get a simple objective off in 5 simple adrenaline, while the poor Paragon has a mess of redundant, confusing "if" statement skills to do the same thing. Sorry but I'd take the no extra damage, do what I want skill than messy garbage like that.

insanethemadone · Jun 20, 2010, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emily Diehl

Hi guys,

We chatted with the live team about this topic, and here's an update for you:

- As we've mentioned in the past, we're currently looking at Dervish and Paragon updates (in that order). You may have noticed from the Necro and Mes changes that we're willing to make some pretty significant changes to the professions at times, so anything major like this requires quite a bit of testing. I don't have a specific timeframe for when these updates will hit, but they're in process.

- We're working on Dervishes before Paragons because we have more concrete ideas about changes that we'd like to make to them. This isn't to say we have no idea what we'd like to do with Paragons, but we're continuing to work on the profession that's had its changes fleshed out a little more.

If you have suggestions about Paragon updates (or skills in general), definitely feel free to post those thoughts on our wiki. We may not respond to each idea, but we'll check them out and consider them.

- While we're working on these profession updates, we've also started to address a variety of GvG issues (you saw some of those changes go in yesterday's build). We've done some pretty substantial updates to skills in the past six months, so we need to make sure that things are healthy with the overall meta. These changes are at the top of our priority list, but we're continuing to work on balance issues at the same time.

As a sidenote, we know that skill balance is one of those topics that can be nebulous and misunderstood, especially for people that aren't directly working on the changes. We're working on an article that will give you guys a little insight into the process behind what goes into the updates, so keep a future eye on our blog.

On that note, if there's ever a specific topic that you guys think would make an interesting article/post, feel free to email us the suggestion ([email protected]). You can post it or PM it to one of us, too (if that's easier). We can't promise to cover every idea, but getting direct input on the stuff you'd really like to read about is always cool for us.

So Rangers are shown the middle finger from Anet again ?

Lanier · Jun 20, 2010, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

How can they not have a clear vision of fixing the paragon. Here's one hint: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spear_Mastery

Those skills are clunky to put it mildly. 5 that inflict deep wound and not one of them is easier to use than the axe skill Dismember. Also compare some of the descriptions, someone went a little hog wild making them arbitrarily complex:

Here's something normal from the warrior:

Dismember

Axe Attack. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds). 5 Adrenaline

VS. this crazy stuff from para:

Chest Thumper
Spear Attack. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds) if target foe has Cracked Armor. 5 Energy 5 Recharge time

Cruel Spear
Elite Spear Attack. Deals +1...25...31 damage. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds) if target is not moving. 7 Adrenaline

Merciless Spear
Spear Attack. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds). No effect unless target has less than 50% Health. 6 Adrenaline

Slayer's Spear
Spear Attack. Deals +5...21...25 damage. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds) if target has more Health than you. 10 Energy 4 Recharge time

Vicious Attack
Spear Attack. Deals +5...17...20 damage. Inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...13...15 seconds) with a critical hit. 5 Energy 8 Recharge time

So we have a core class that can get a simple objective off in 5 simple adrenaline, while the poor Paragon has a mess of redundant, confusing "if" statement skills to do the same thing. Sorry but I'd take the no extra damage, do what I want skill than messy garbage like that.

Nah. Spear attacks are already well balanced. Sure a few may be conditional but those that are have very easy conditions to fulfill (chest thumper being an exception). Plus, they add pretty good bonus damage. You would have to be a pretty bad player to think that cruel spear or merciless spear are confusing.

MisterB · Jun 20, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

Those skills are clunky to put it mildly. 5 that inflict deep wound and not one of them is easier to use than the axe skill Dismember. Also compare some of the descriptions, someone went a little hog wild making them arbitrarily complex:

So you think it's a good idea to give a ranged weapon equal power to a melee weapon? Ok, then. Anyway, those spear attacks are not hard to use. Merciless Spear is functionally equivalent to Dismember, at a higher adrenaline cost. You want to put deep wound on a target that is dying, since deep wound accelerates its demise. Dismember and all warrior attack skills have the condition "if target is adjacent" due to the range of their weapons. It only makes sense to balance the power of the spear attacks since they do not have the adjacent range restriction(with one exception), especially those that inflict the most powerful condition in the game, deep wound.